Legislature(1999 - 2000)
02/25/1999 08:09 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
February 25, 1999
8:09 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jeannette James, Chair
Representative Scott Ogan
Representative Jim Whitaker
Representative Bill Hudson
Representative Beth Kerttula
Representative Harold Smalley
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative John Coghill
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS
Department of Administration
Robert Poe, Commissioner, Department of Administration
- CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
Department of Military and Veterans Affairs
- POSTPONED
HOUSE BILL NO. 80
"An Act relating to a state employment preference for certain
members of the Alaska National Guard."
- MOVED CSHB 80(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 45
"An Act relating to initiative and referendum petitions; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED CSHB 45(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 7
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska
relating to initiative and referendum petitions.
- MOVED CSHJR 7(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 80
SHORT TITLE: EMPLOYMENT PREFERENCE FOR NAT'L GUARD
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) MORGAN, Foster, Kapsner, Masek,
Harris, Kott, Mulder, Croft, Dyson, Coghill, Rokeberg, Phillips,
Murkowski, Halcro
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
2/03/99 133 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
2/03/99 133 (H) MLV, STATE AFFAIRS
2/05/99 147 (H) COSPONSOR(S): COGHILL, ROKEBERG,
2/05/99 147 (H) PHILLIPS
2/08/99 173 (H) COSPONSOR(S): MURKOWSKI
2/16/99 (H) MLV AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 120
2/16/99 (H) MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE
2/16/99 (H) MINUTE(MLV)
2/17/99 235 (H) MLV RPT 7DP
2/17/99 235 (H) DP: FOSTER, PHILLIPS, CROFT, COGHILL,
2/17/99 235 (H) KOTT, JAMES, MURKOWSKI
2/17/99 235 (H) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (ADM)
2/17/99 235 (H) REFERRED TO STA
2/23/99 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
2/23/99 (H) HEARD AND HELD
2/24/99 308 (H) COSPONSOR(S): HALCRO
2/25/99 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
BILL: HB 45
SHORT TITLE: INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) WILLIAMS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
1/19/99 30 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
1/19/99 30 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, FINANCE
2/25/99 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
BILL: HJR 7
SHORT TITLE: CONST AM: INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) WILLIAMS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
1/19/99 17 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
1/19/99 17 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, JUDICIARY, FINANCE
2/11/99 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
2/11/99 (H) HEARD AND HELD
2/11/99 (H) MINUTE(STA)
2/19/99 (H) STA AT 3:30 PM CAPITOL 102
2/23/99 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
2/23/99 (H) HEARD AND HELD
2/25/99 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
WITNESS REGISTER
ROBERT POE, Commissioner
Department of Administration
P.O. Box 110200
Juneau, Alaska 99811
Telephone: (907) 456-2200
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as appointee to the Department of
Administration.
REPRESENTATIVE CARL MORGAN
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 409
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-4527
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 80.
BRUCE GAZAWAY, President
Alaska National Guard Enlisted Association
4420 Edinburgh Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99515
Telephone: (907) 243-6779
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 80.
BRUCE J. GABRYS, President
Alaska National Guard Officer's Association
10229 Baffin
Eagle River, Alaska 99577
Telephone: (907) 694-3874
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 80.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 99-9, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR JEANNETTE JAMES called the House State Affairs Standing
Committee meeting to order at 8:04 a.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives James, Ogan, Whitaker, Hudson,
Kerttula and Smalley.
CONFIRMATION HEARING: DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATION
Number 0010
CHAIR JAMES announced the first order of business is the
confirmation of Robert Poe, Commissioner of the Department of
Administration.
Number 0012
ROBERT POE, Commissioner, Department of Administration, said he
came to Alaska in 1981 to design the state accounting system. He
said he loves Alaska and has always wanted to contribute to it.
COMMISSIONER POE stated the Department of Administration has one of
the biggest impacts on state government services - and the way it
delivers those services. He noted he has fixed some of the more
difficult problems in Alaska over the years and cited the
Department of Transportation and Public Facilities's (DOT/PF)
capital project cleanup, the international trade issue, and
negotiations with the Federal Express at the Anchorage
International Airport as examples. He said he has some skills to
help government do a better job. His interest is to help things go
well, to bring a practical point of view, to hear as many points of
view as possible, and to be reasonable and honest to the job.
CHAIR JAMES mentioned accounting is her background and noted that
some changes may need to be made to the state's accounting system,
given the current technology.
COMMISSIONER POE replied, so far it works well. However, the
current system is not very pretty. The screens and reports are
complicated to read unless one has been working with it for some
time. Thus, the reporting could be made a little bit friendlier
and easier to look at, but the individuals that work with it every
day like it. It is a solid system and has yet to be fully taxed.
It was structured to look at seven different points of view
simultaneously. He cited that in 1987 the legislature thought
DOT/PF had misplaced approximately $350 million due to a rush of
projects. The state accounting system resolved that problem.
Number 0127
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked for his position on contract negotiations
in light of the tough financial picture for the state. He asked
Commissioner Poe whether the former senator [Duncan] is going to
negotiate the contracts.
COMMISSIONER POE replied that the former senator will be assisting
with negotiations and cost reductions. These are tough financial
times for the state. The Public Safety Employment Association
(PSEA) agreement, which was announced yesterday, is a no-increase
contract for three years. Granted, wages and benefits can be
reopened in years two and three, but the state troopers, fire
marshals, and airport safety officers stated they wouldn't ask for
an increase because they understand the tough financial situation
the state is in. They would like another chance to talk about it
in the future, but the state has not made a commitment to that.
Not all bargaining units, however, see that point of view. Some
are more optimistic in what they might be able to secure.
Nevertheless, the Department of Administration needs to deliver
that tough message, and sometimes the toughest messages come from
the people they trust the most - the strategy of the department.
He said former-Senator Duncan understands that strategy.
Number 0169
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN referred to a resolution passed last session by
the legislature, and asked Commissioner Poe whether he is going for
a zero net increase in contract negotiations.
COMMISSIONER POE replied he can't talk about the total strategy,
but the ratification process includes the legislature. The PSEA
agreement hit all the requirements in the resolution point for
point.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN indicated he is looking for a less contentious
posture between the Administration, the legislature and the unions.
COMMISSIONER POE said it is important. It is not a good guy-bad
guy situation; it's individuals trying to deal with a financial
situation. He doesn't see it as "us," versus "them" situation.
Number 0227
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON stated he views the Department of
Administration as a consultant to the governor on administrative
matters. He asked Commissioner Poe whether he has a policy on
centralization versus decentralization of administrative functions
in light of the growth of those agencies. For an example, the
Office of Management and Budget has gone from a budget to a
management perspective. He asked if the Governor talked to him
about analyzing all of the administrative functions of the entire
state and make a recommendation.
COMMISSIONER POE replied no, the Governor has not talked to him
about that yet. There is not only one good solution to any
problem. When you're looking at centralization, it is important to
look at the quality of service for the lowest possible cost. It
doesn't always mean centralization. Whatever decision is made, as
commissioner, that decision will annoy someone. Therefore, he is
trying to use governance groups to help eliminate that type of
annoyance. He cited the Telecommunication Information Council as
an example and noted that he will use it for guidance on direction
relating to computing. He also cited the Group of Administrative
Services Directors as another example. It deals with
administrative issues in the agencies because frequently the agency
that speaks the loudest gets its way to the detriment of the other
agencies. He wants the group to make a decision and agree to hold
to it. He stated he believes in both centralization and
decentralization. More important, he believes that individuals
need to work together to solve problems. He said he is not the
only person with an idea or the brains to think through the
problems.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said it is difficult for legislators to
reconfigure government to operate more efficiently and Commissioner
Poe is in a key position to analyze the use of administrative
services such as hiring, firing and leasing. He hopes that upon
confirmation the legislature can count on him to be bold.
COMMISSIONER POE said he is not afraid of hard projects, but he
wants people to take responsibility for the direction of state
government. He has had more success with talking about the
problems and how to solve them. It doesn't matter if he knew the
solution from the beginning; it is more important, when we're done,
that everybody owns the solution to the problem. That is going to
be his approach over and over again.
Number 0365
CHAIR JAMES stated in business these days a flatter organizational
chart works better and most of the things that the voters complain
about - can only be done through the Administration. The
legislature can only say how much money the Administration can get
to do it and beyond that it is hamstrung. She asked Commissioner
Poe to comment on a flatter organizational chart.
COMMISSIONER POE replied he agrees with a flatter organizational
chart, but not all organizations can work that way. For instance
the Alaska State Troopers need a certain chain of command and
that's probably important. Movement in government is not always
easy because of personnel rules and labor contracts. Sometimes
that's good. Government is designed to plod a little bit. He
noted the legislative process isn't fast at times, while at other
times it moves in a minute. Some of the more sensible solutions
would have huge ramifications across the state and that needs to be
taken under consideration. Commissioner Condon said there are some
things that he can do to reduce the stat's costs significantly.
But people could be outraged for what he has done so he needs to
balance that and he is going to do his best to do that.
Number 0422
CHAIR JAMES stated it is the collective group of the legislature
that doesn't move the way each individual representative would go,
and in addition, it seems that government inherently is process-
oriented instead of goal-oriented. She thought she could do more
about that, but has found instead that any reform just adds more
work. She cited an example of an insurance issue requiring seven
notarized copies, and asked Commissioner Poe whether the agencies
are talking and sharing things better compared to when she first
was elected seven years ago.
COMMISSIONER POE replied there is quite a bit of talking and
sharing now. The goal of the private sector is to make money,
while the goals of government are varied between the agencies which
presents the problems. In reference to the seven notarized copies,
the Administration is starting to move in the direction of
efficiency. He cited the Division of Motor Vehicles as an example
whereby many transactions can be completed via the Internet. There
is a problem with an electronic signature, but it is being solved
elsewhere and there might be some statutory problems with it as
well, but as the state moves in that direction costs can be
reduced. In reference to agencies talking with each other,
technology has improved to help with that. He cited E-mail as an
example. He used to have only one in-basket and now he has three
because of E-mail and voice messages. The Administration is
looking at fish and game licenses over the Internet that might make
some people angry. Don't be surprised if a sporting good store
says, "Hey, wait a minute. That was an important part of bringing
customers into the shop. I liked them having to come down and get
the license at my shop." What seems to be good, and makes sense
has an impact. Nevertheless, the Administration is working on that
because it is the only way to continue to deliver services at a
lower cost.
Number 0518
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA remarked that Commissioner Poe has the
broad mind to work on these types of issues. She asked him where
the state is on the Y2K issue.
COMMISSIONER POE replied the best thing with Y2K is that its
funding is moving forward and that a lot of agencies have been
working on it for some time. Many of the systems, therefore, are
ready to go and are waiting on their contingency plans. He cited
the plans for rural and international airports look good. In the
next month there will be "table top exercises" to begin to think
about how to respond to emergencies associated with Y2K. Alaska
might have its act together and still be vulnerable because not
much is produced here. Most items are shipped in, flown in or
trucked in, via a supply line. He noted that there might be
several small events on that specific date and some that might
happen later because a delayed impact from the Lower 48 states.
Those things need to be thought through.
Number 0559
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated, in his opinion, there is an inherent
disincentive to be a good steward of the people's money because no
good deed goes unpunished. For example, a good administrator is
penalized by the legislature for tightening that administrators'
budget by not giving more money. He suggested an incentive program
that rewards those who save money.
COMMISSIONER POE replied there are ways to reward employees for
good ideas and that has been around for a while. In 1983, as a
member of the Administration, Governor Sheffield campaigned on the
zero-based budgeting which is very difficult to work. Commissioner
Poe said he designed an alternative budget system but it turned out
to be one of his biggest disasters in his career, but he learned
from that. To do substantive things sometimes two to three years,
it takes a commitment to a long-range plan. He said, "If you can
help me find a way to have the legislature also to adhere to that
kind of an approach, maybe we can actually get there. And, that's
not tossing it out to you, I'm just saying there's a lot of
dynamics involved in that problem and none of us have really found
a way to hold us to the same plan."
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN mentioned there are a few state employees that
are not carrying their load, and there's probably more that do more
than their share. He indicated the Administration's hands are
tied, that they can't really fire somebody unless there is gross
incompetence. He asked is there something that you can negotiate
in the contract, or some kind of methodology to raise the level.
COMMISSIONER POE replied that problem gets dealt with on several
levels, the first is the management over that employee. You can
fire state employees, you have to want to do it, you have to commit
to doing it. It can be done, and it should be done when somebody
isn't performing.
COMMISSIONER POE said some mangers give an employee a good review
and hopefully they'll go to work for somebody else and won't have
to go through all that effort to move them out. He said he thinks
this approach is dishonest, that you have to handle the problems
that you have to handle.
Number 0648
COMMISSIONER POE referred to the labor contracts that are in the
process of negotiating that also allows management to open up to
elements that are contracted that they would like to talk about.
It allows the union to open up to elements other than wages and
benefits. Yes, in that area, you can begin to discuss some of
those harder issues. In reality, you have to give something to get
something. Yes, there are some things you can negotiate.
CHAIR JAMES mentioned she had the same conversation with Fate
Putman. She cited her private business as an example - you have to
notify them when they do something wrong and you have to put that
in their files to establish a record.
Number 0673
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON moved to forward the confirmation of
Commissioner Poe. There being no objection, it was so ordered.
HB 80 - EMPLOYMENT PREFERENCE FOR NAT'L GUARD
Number 0684
CHAIR JAMES announced the next order of business is HB 80, "An Act
relating to a state employment preference for certain members of
the Alaska National Guard."
Number 0691
[Malfunction - tape jammed].
REPRESENTATIVE CARL MORGAN stressed that he would like HB 80
introduced as is, without amendments.
TAPE 99-10, SIDE A
Number 0001
CHAIR JAMES called an at-ease at 8:53 a.m. and called the House
State Affairs Standing Committee back to order at 8:54 a.m.
Number 0012
BRUCE GAZAWAY, President, Alaska National Guard Enlisted
Association, testified via teleconference from Anchorage. He
reported that the National Guard totally agrees with the
three-point preference.
Number 0018
BRUCE GABRYS, President, Alaska National Guard Officer's
Association testified via teleconference from Anchorage. He
stressed that he would also like HB 80 to pass out of committee
with the three-point preference. It does recognize the
contribution of the National Guard service without diminishing, or
placing it on par with the contributions of veterans who served
during the time of war, and/or was disabled, or was a prisoner of
war.
MR. GABRYS noted HB 80 does have the veterans' support at the
three-point level. He indicated it would take a considerable
amount of work to elevate that to five points.
MR. GABRYS said the Department of Administration raised concerns
about the applicant's scores. He said he felt the illustration
presented is unrealistic in that it proposed a false dilemma. For
example, the veteran applicants were over-represented in the model.
It also made an assumption that 50 percent of the veterans that
were applying, with the ten-point preference, would have meant that
they were either disabled or a prisoner of war.
MR. GABRYS further explained, of the four veteran applicants
listed, two are scored without the preference points with a perfect
100-score, and two scored at 90 points in the example. Under this
scenario, the veterans are on the reachable list, with or without
any preference points. He said he didn't believe that is
representative of the population pool of applicants.
MR. GABRYS said the preference points are to assist veterans that
are primarily in the range of the 70-85 point level and are
reachable and eligible to gain an interview.
MR. GABRYS pointed out the scoring of applicants are listed in
five-point increments. Unless Workplace Alaska has changed the
scoring system, an applicant under the previous system could score
an 87-point total, with the additional three-points as proposed by
HB 80, would be given a score of 90. This would qualify the
applicant eligible for an interview. Previously, without the
three-point preference, that applicant would not have been eligible
for an interview.
MR. GABRYS urged the committee to pass HB 80 with the three-point
preference. He remarked, "If there are concerns with Workplace
Alaska integration, that would have to be addressed outside of this
forum on an administrative basis."
Number 0097
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY offered Amendment 3. Page 2, line 12,
delete three and insert five.
In an examination to determine the qualification of applicants
for the classified service under merit system examination,
[three] five points shall be added to the passing grade of a
member of the national guard.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON objected.
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY said it would appear to create fewer
problems or concerns and allows more flexibility. He indicated he
hasn't heard any essential problems with diminishing the service of
the veterans versus the National Guard. It makes the system
cleaner and more inductive.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON mentioned members of the National Guard
object to the amendment, and the committee hasn't heard from the
active duty individuals. He said he believes HB 80 is a good
incentive and it would serve the purpose at three; if it is moved
to five, there is a good chance that it will not pass.
CHAIR JAMES disagreed that this would diminish the ability to hire
minorities because of the high number of minorities in the National
Guard.
A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Kerttula and Smalley
voted for the amendment. Representatives James, Ogan, Whitaker,
and Hudson voted against it. Therefore, Amendment 3 failed by a
vote of 2-4.
Number 0174
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY offered Amendment 4, page 3, lines 18-21
Delete:
If all job qualifications are equal, a member of the national
guard shall be given preference over a person who was not a
veteran, prisoner of war, or member of the national guard, and
the member of the national guard shall be kept on the job.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN objected.
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY indicated it creates a large number of
people that have bumping rights. A veteran that is disabled, or a
prisoner of war, is a small group of people. When you're talking
about the bumping preference for approximately 12 percent of the
state workforce, you're talking about a tremendous amount of people
that impact that process. He noted they still have preferential
points in the overall process.
CHAIR JAMES pointed out that Fate Putman, Alaska State Employees
Association, said that it's all right to leave the sentence in the
bill.
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY remarked that he also had the same
conversation with Mr. Putman and he said that he believes that it
should be deleted.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON mentioned he didn't want this legislation to
involve itself in the standard job retention or bumping privilege.
He indicated that he agrees with Representative Smalley and
referred to line 17 which refers to the elimination of a position:
If a position of the classified service is eliminated,
employees shall be released in accordance with the rules that
give due effect to all factors.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON mentioned the following text would be
retained:
This subsection may not be interpreted to amend the terms of
the collective bargaining agreement.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said the terms and conditions of the
bargaining agreement would signify who would be retained and who
wouldn't be. He indicated he would support this amendment.
Number 0263
REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER asked Representative Smalley to explain the
12 percent in the context it was given.
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY replied he was using the data that was
provided at the previous hearing - approximately 12 percent of the
state workforce are veterans. In his opinion, the 12 percent
allows bumping to an expanded group of people and opens up that
classification. He reiterated that the intent is primary to make
sure they get the interview. Those protections are there without
that sentence being in there.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA agreed with Representative Smalley.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN indicated he would support the amendment and
further stated that this is to get their foot in the door. He
said, "Again, I wish we could amend the whole bargaining agreement,
the people to go first are the people that aren't doing a good
job."
REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER asked Representative Morgan for his comment
on the amendment.
Number 0302
REPRESENTATIVE MORGAN noted he didn't want the language deleted
because the same language is included - on the top - for the
veterans. He remarked no one has been unfairly bumped and a system
is already in play for the veterans.
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY referred to lines 3-6 and remarked that he
believes it's a smaller group of individuals in that process. He
further stated, "And, I think down here, the sentence opens it up
to a very large group and I think the original intent was just to
get them to that process, to get them to the interview. I think
those other protections are there without that sentence being in
there. And again, it's not to diminish the service, but not to put
that large of a category of people in that potential bumping
process."
CHAIR JAMES asked Mr. Gabrys what percentage of guardsmen are also
veterans.
MR. GABRYS replied, throughout the guard, you're probably in the
20-30 percent bracket of current guardsmen who are in some for a
veteran.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked for a further explanation of what has
been added to Section 2.
CHAIR JAMES reiterated the changes made in the provision.
CHAIR JAMES called a brief at-ease at 9:14 a.m. and called them
back to order at 9:15 a.m.
Number 0377
CHAIR JAMES asked for a roll call vote on Amendment 4.
Representatives Ogan, Hudson, Smalley, Whitaker and Kerttula voted
in support of it. Representative James voted against it.
Therefore Amendment 4 passed by a vote of 5-1.
Number 0387
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON moved to report CSHB 80 (STA), with
individual recommendations and attached fiscal note. There being
no objection, it was so ordered.
HB 45 INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS
HJR 7 CONST AM: INITIATIVE/REFERENDUM PETITIONS
Number 0403
CHAIR JAMES announced the next order of business is HOUSE BILL NO.
45, "An Act relating to initiative and referendum petitions; and
providing for an effective date," and HJR 7, "Proposing an
amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska relating to
initiative and referendum petitions."
CHAIR JAMES asked Representative Ogan if he was still interested in
proposing an amendment.
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied no.
CHAIR JAMES noted Representative Coghill informed her that, if
there was an effort to reduce the number of folks in each district,
that we would also indicate the numbers of districts. She said he
felt the 10 percent and the three-quarters is the proper balance.
CHAIR JAMES noted messages from Michelle Keck and David Karalunas
are on file. All members have received a copy.
Number 0432
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON moved to report CSHB 45 (STA) out of the
committee with individual recommendations and with accompanying
fiscal note. There being no objection, it was so ordered.
Number 0442
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON moved to report CSHJR 7 (STA) out of
committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying
fiscal note. There being no objection, it was so ordered.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 0452
There being no further business before the committee, the House
State Affairs Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 9:22 a.m.
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